Johnathan Dimbleby: I'm Johnathan Dimbleby. Welcome to the 'Intelligence Squared' debate in London where we've got an enthralling evening ahead of us. Two intellectual towers, two wits so sharp you could cut through all the red tape of Brussels in one go, two giants of humour, literature and British culture. Ladies and gentlemen, Stephen Fry and Oscar Wilde. Tonight's topic under discussion, 'God and His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is Really Nasty and it Hates Queers.'
Stephen Fry: "Of course it is and of course it does."
Oscar Wilde: "Of course it isn't and of course it doesn't. We are all of us in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars."
Stephen Fry: "I knew you'd say that. Well, alright then, but as far as I'm concerned you can shove your Catholic Faith up your arse. In days gone by, I suppose I'd have been burnt alive for my homosexuality. How do you answer this, Oscar?"
(Crowd cheers)
Oscar Wilde: "Well, I wasn't injured by the Church. It was secular authorities who imprisoned me and I served my time for my offense. What is more, it gave me time to reflect on my family life and my sins and through that time at Reading Gaol I came up with De Profundis. According to the laws of the time, I made restitution for my crime, even though, quite blatently, it was a stitch up. No. I wasn't injured by the Church and in fact, if you look back at my life, you'll see it was the Church which offered me spiritual solace and refuge while all around me condemned me. Having flirted with the Faith so much for my life I was, at one point, asking a parish priest to receive me into the Holy Faith, but, as he decided, I was not yet ready, since it was obvious I fell so easily back into the mire of mortal sin, and, at the time, for such a public sinner to be received without sincere repentance would have caused scandal to the Faithful. My weakness for men led me into all kinds of unfortunate occasions of sin and all kinds of spiritual and temporal misery, such as so often afflict us men, drawn so easily to the sins of the flesh. However, the Lord, in His Mercy and Kindness was faithful to me, even though I was unfaithful to Him and my priest received me into full communion with the One True Church upon my death bed. So, in response to your assertion, while in periods of history the Church has not always shown mercy to those in your position and mine, you cannot just say that the Church despises homosexuals and as far as I'm concerned Christ only showed me love and salvation."
(Crowd murmurs)
Stephen Fry: "Oh come on! Your living in the dark ages! We've moved on now. Society has progressed and people have realised that religions, especially the wicked and insidious Catholic Church put restrictions on people, restrictions on people like us to have loving, human relationships. Homosexual relationships are not about sin, they are about love."
Oscar Wilde: "The love that dare not speak its name? Well, of course, I fell 'in love' with Lord Alfred Douglas, who was also a Catholic and is buried at Crawley Cemetery. He, too, died in the Holy Faith. But look at the consequences of our actions, driven as we were, by our passions. My wife and children suffered much on account of my actions, especially given the public nature of the scandal. I mean, where do you think I got so much inspiration for my children's books, such as The Selfish Giant?" As for love, well, modern interpretations of love are rather misleading, don't you think? They tend towards the shallow, they certainly lack depth, they seem transfixed upon the self, the satisfaction of the self and the indulgence of self-centred desires and passions. Homosexual relationships may 'feel' pleasurable, make people temporarily happy or even 'feel' good. But is love really about feelings, Mr Fry? Or is love something which makes demands on us. Perhaps, as we Catholics who gaze upon the Cross of our Saviour, we can see that love, actual love, comes at a cost. Love hurts, primarily because it comes at a cost to ourselves. Love is sacrificial in nature and essense. It looks not for the good of the one who gives it, but to the one who is in receipt of it."
Stephen Fry: "Well, you can use such flowery language, Mr Wilde, as is your flair, but why on earth did you get married in the first place given you were gay? I guess you just felt pressured into it because of the conventions of the time. Marriage and convention, Christian ideals of that society forced you to marry and lead a double life."
(Crowd applaud)
Oscar Wilde: "Ah, the conventions of the time. You make marriage sound like a dirty word. Is this love, Mr Fry, the love that dare not speak its name? While it is true to say that I did not always respect my Vows, it is would be a gross over-simplification that I did not love my wife. I never regretted marrying, I never regretted having children and I never regretted, according to the social mores of the time, which, as far as I can see, are more fruitful than the social mores of your time, accepting the profoundly vital institution of Marriage. My wife and my children gave me years of joy, which, regrettably, so many gay men will never experience because they are steeped in a culture which, as I knew too well, is inherently destructive, even while it remains alluring. I mean, if everybody thought the way in which you do regarding human sexuality, very few children would be born because everybody would see them as an impediment to personal gain, amusement and pleasure, like The Selfish Giant. You appear to live in a society now that resents children because of the responsibility that comes with having them. I would strongly argue that it is your society, not mine, and certainly not the Catholic community, that is on the verge of self-destruction."
(Crowd clap nervously)
Stephen Fry: "But I don't understand it! The Church is always speaking against gays and homosexuality, but we can't help it because it is a part of us and its natural! Surely something so natural cannot be bad! How could you, who were so feted and admired for your genius feel attracted to an institution so arcane and stupid which says that you are basically born to sin?"
Oscar Wilde: "Our lot is not an easy one and we have a Cross to bear. Others have other Crosses. We are born into a fallen World, we are easily tempted and fall into sin. The inclination towards homosexual attraction may be an unwanted condition over which an individual has little control, yet certainly the act of homosexuality is stated by the Church to be a mortal sin resulting from an instrinsic moral disorder. But does God lie? I don't mind admitting that in my life I suffered from a condition which, objectively speaking, was and is instrinsically morally disordered. Is it really so natural? Is this how children are born? Are the fruits of homosexual relationships tangibly good or holy? No, God does not lie and neither does His Church, and yet the same Church teaches that while homosexuality presents to the Christian a struggle, there is no reason why, in uniting himself to the Cross of Christ and perservering in the Faith he should not attain holiness and perfection, if God so graced him in this life, or most certainly and more likely the next. Every human being is called to sanctity, holiness. Every person is called to be a Saint.
Meanwhile, you ask how I, who was such a genius that it was the only thing I wished to declare when I went to the US, could be so attracted to the Catholic Church. I was attracted to the Catholic Church because of Her beauty, the Mystery of the liturgy, the Mystery of Salvation and Holiness. I was also attracted to Our Lord Jesus Christ, in a spiritual sense that is, because He loved me unto death upon the Cross to redeem me and rescue me from all of my sins. He took all of my misery and my shame upon Himself on Calvary. The Church is in this World, but She is not of it. You won't find the sublime beauty and mystery of the Incarnation, the splendour of the Traditional Latin Mass and the Glory of God anywhere else. Nothing in literature, nothing in the arts, nothing at exclusive parties and nothing in the whole of luvviedom compares with the beauty of the Catholic Church. Now, do you fancy a gin and tonic?"
Stephen Fry: "Yeah, go on then. Sorry, I hope I didn't rant at you too much."
Oscar Wilde: "Ah, don't worry about it. To err is..?"
Stephen Fry: "Human! And to forgive is..."
Oscar Wilde: "Divine, darling! Absolutely Divine!"
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